Yakov Dzhugashvili, the oldest child of Josef Stalin, could never be said to have enjoyed an easy life. After his mother died when he was less than one year old, his father dumped him off to be reared by her family while he went off to be Stalin, doing Stalinesque things as only he could do. When Yakov was 14 years old, he was brought to Moscow to be at his father’s side during the rise of the Bolsheviks. Historians assert that, with an aloof father with little time or interest in the boy’s development, he was an unhappy young man who had attempted several suicide attempts.
Dzhugashvili was ordered by his father to enroll in artillery officer training, and after the Nazis invaded the Soviet Union, he was sent to the front lines by his father in an effort by Stalin to show he showed no favoritism, that all of the lads sent off to war were his sons. Less than one month after arriving at the front, he was captured.
Over the years, a number of quotes from what is purported to be Dzhugashvili’s post-capture interrogation have popped up here and there on the Internet. In recent years, a copy of the interrogation was either formally released or leaked; its authenticity has been called into question by many, but many who knew him apparently feel it is the real article. Among those who felt it was at least worth consideration was the KGB itself, which held it in its archives.
The following is a series of translations related to Dzhugashvili’s capture, interrogation, and death. Because the interrogation we received was in Russian, we have to accept that some thoughts may have literally become lost in the translation. Dzhugashvili’s words were interpreted from Russian into German for his interrogators, captured on paper in German, translated into Russian once those documents found themselves in Soviet hands, and now are being translated into English. Let’s hope for the best, shall we?
The lengthy (30+ page) interrogation suggests that, rather than digging to pluck intelligence nuggets from Dzhugashvili in the early days of the war, the Germans were using this more as an opportunity to play cat and mouse with their high-profile guest. Stalin’s son has quite a bit to say, but what caught most attention across the web were snippets about his thoughts on Jews and Gypsies and their impact on Russia. Interesting, given that Dzhugashvili’s wife and family were ethnically Jewish, and his mother may have been, as well.
The second, much shorter document in this collection is a March 1945 paper from the Chief of Staff of the 1st Soviet Partisan Regiment, addressed to the USSR Council of People’s Commissars for Repatriation Affairs. It dealt chiefly with the Major’s eyewitness testimony to Dzhugashvili’s treatment as a POW in the Hammelburg concentration camp in southern Bavaria.
The last document is a September 1946 Top Secret (“Eyes Only”) report to the Minister of Internal Affairs, dealing with the arrest of an eyewitness to events leading up to Dzhugashvili’s death, and how his body was handled afterward. It appears to be at variance with the official version still in circulation today.
Notes on the translation: The interrogation was conducted by two German officers, Captain Reuschle and Major Holters. All questions are highlighted in bold, and responses are in italics. One of the two continuously breaks the protocol used by most interpreters, in which questions are addressed to the prisoner being interrogated. In many of the questions, one of the interrogators refers to the prisoner in the third person. These questions or comments are enclosed by parentheses to help avoid confusion.
18 July 1941
3rd Motorized Rifle Company of War Correspondents.
Interrogation of prisoner of war Senior Lieutenant Stalin by the commander of the 4th Army aviation.
Interrogated by Captain Reuschle and Major Holters on 18.7.41 – Transmitted in code by radio.
— Your given name?
— Yakov.
— Surname?
— Dhugashvili.
— You are a relative of the Chairman of the Council of People’s Commissars?
— I’m his eldest son.
— Do you speak German?
— I once studied German, about 10 years ago, I remember some of it, there are some familiar words.
— Have you ever been to Germany?
— No, I was promised, but it never happened, it just happened that I was unable to go.
— (When was he supposed to leave?)
— I wanted to go after graduating from college.
— What is your rank in the Soviet army and what unit did you serve in?
— Senior Lieutenant. I served in the 14th Howitzer Regiment, attached to the 14th Armor Division, an artillery regiment with the 14th Division.
— How did you end up here, with us?
— I – that is, not actually I, but the remnants of my division, we were defeated on 7 July, and the remnants of this division were surrounded in the Lyasnovo area.
— Did you come to us voluntarily, or were you captured in battle?
— Not voluntarily. I was forced to come.
— Were you taken prisoner alone, or were you with your comrades, and if so, how many of them were there?
— Unfortunately, the encirclement you carried out caused such panic that everyone ran away in different directions. You see, we were surrounded, everyone ran away, I was at the division commander’s at that time.
— Were you a division commander?
— No, a battery commander, but when it became clear to us that we were surrounded, at that time I was with the division commander, at headquarters. I ran to my people, but at that moment a group of Red Army soldiers who wanted to break through called me over. They asked me to take command and attack your units. I did that, but the Red Army soldiers must have gotten scared, and I was left alone. I had no idea where my artillerymen were, I did not run into any of them. If you are interested, I can tell you in more detail. What is today’s date? (Today is the 18th). So, today’s the 18th. So, the night before yesterday near Liozno, 1-1/2 km from Liozno, on that morning we were surrounded, we fought with you.
— How were you treated by our soldiers?
— Well, they only took my boots, but overall, I would say, not bad. But I can say that your prisoners are not treated badly either, I myself was a witness, and I would say even your paratroopers [are treated well], because you know what they are intended for, they are essentially “saboteurs”.
— Why do you say “even the paratroopers”?
— I said even the paratroops, and why? Because, you know what the paratroopers are, because I…
— Why should the paratroopers be treated any differently?
— Because I was told here that you say that [German prisoners] are killed, tortured, etc., and this is not true, not true.
— So are they [paratroopers] not soldiers in your opinion??
— You see, they are, of course, soldiers, but the methods and nature of their way of fighting is rather different, very insidious.
— (Does he think that German paratroopers also fight with such means?)
— With which [means]?
— German soldiers jump out of planes and fight just like an infantryman fighting his way through with shock troops.
— That’s not always the case, in the majority of cases.
— So Russian paratroopers act differently?
— Let’s be honest, I think both you and we attach a slightly different meaning to paratroopers, I think that’s the case.
— But that’s completely untrue.
— Perhaps, but that is the opinion we’ve formed. My comrades, my artillerymen and acquaintances from anti-tank units, told me that [German paratroopers fight] in our uniforms.
— (Does he really think that our paratroopers jump from planes in civilian clothes, as the British government once reported?)
— The fact that your paratroopers were caught in the uniforms of our Red Army soldiers and militia is a fact that cannot be denied.
— Ahh, so it’s the same fairy tale that the English tell?
— No, it’s a fact.
— (So has he himself ever seen a paratrooper dropped in civilian clothes or in the uniform of a foreign army?)
— I’ve been told this by the locals, you see, and I don’t argue, a fight is a fight, and in a fight there are no holds barred. They caught one woman, they caught some woman, I don’t know who she was – one of yours or one of ours, but an enemy. They found a bottle with plague bacilli on her.
— Was she German?
— No, she was Russian.
— (And does he believe this?)
— I believe that they caught her, this woman, but who she is, I don’t know, I didn’t ask, she’s not German, but Russian, but her assignment was to poison wells.
— (So he was told this, but he didn’t see it himself.)
— I didn’t see it myself, but those who told me about it are people I can trust.
— Who are these people?
— Residents and comrades who were with me told me about it. That they caught a woman from your side, on a tram. She was wearing a police uniform and was buying a ticket, this is how she gave herself away. Our police never buy tram tickets. Or like this: they detain a person, he has four cubes, and we don’t carry four cubes, only three.
— Where was this?
— This was in Smolensk. My comrades told me about it.
— Does he know about our use of paratroopers in Holland and other operations? Does he think that these were also German soldiers in foreign uniforms?
— You see, while the Soviet-Russian war was going on… I know, yes, the Soviet press very objectively covered the military actions between Germany and its enemies… For example, our press wrote about the operations of your paratroopers that the British accused the Germans of operating on the territory of other countries in Dutch uniforms or even in the uniforms of non-German soldiers, our press wrote about this based on reports from the British, but at the same time it was noted that the Germans hardly needed this. I read this myself, I know this.
— One question. You yourself have come into contact with German troops in battle and know how German soldiers fight. Surely there can’t be such a situation that there are cases of the sort of misdoings that you speak of when you mention our paratroopers, if in other respects the war is being waged in a normal manner?
— Yes, that’s right. I agree in all respects. You see, I personally approach this matter in the following way: paratroopers are a new type of troops, like, for example, artillery, cavalry, etc., it is a completely different type of soldier. Their mission is to strike from the rear. This type of soldier operates behind enemy lines and therefore causes a corresponding reaction among the population and in the army. They are considered spies.
— Is this also practiced in Russia?
— If someone is considered capable of something, then one should also evaluate one’s own behavior. We act towards you in the same way as you act towards us. The following facts took place in Smolensk: you should know that when your aircraft bombed Smolensk and our firefighters were putting out the fires, your paratroopers opened fire on the firefighters. I think that Russian paratroopers would have acted in exactly the same way, it is war.
— We have not used paratroopers in Russia yet. Have you used any of the famous 200 thousand paratroopers that you supposedly have?
— Our paratroopers are hardly used on the Eastern Front.
— How can this be linked with the 200 thousand paratroopers who were deployed into battle?
— 200 thousand? So you are asking me what is going on with the 200 thousand paratroopers that we have in the Soviet Union? I cannot say this, since I have had no contact with Moscow since 22 June, because I went to the army, to the 14th Armor Division. Since then I have cut off all ties, so I do not know what the paratroopers are doing, what they have undertaken during this time. I can only say that I do not know. If they exist, if they are present, then they have been put into action, this is their mission. You yourself know this.
— But before your people used to say: out of fear of captivity, Red Army soldiers would rather shoot themselves.
— I must speak frankly on this issue: if my Red Army soldiers retreated, if I saw that my division was retreating, I would shoot myself, since retreating is impossible.
— (Why did the soldiers leave him?)
— No, these weren’t my soldiers, they were infantry.
— (Did he know that under international law a captured soldier in civilian clothes is treated very differently than a soldier in uniform? Why did he put on civilian clothes?)
— I’ll tell you why, because I wanted to run to my own people, and if I were suspected of intending to engage in espionage, then for this I would have had to know German.
— (Is he aware of the order which states that if a soldier is in danger of being taken prisoner, he must provide himself with civilian clothing?)
— You see, I only know that all those who ran away after the encirclement started changing clothes, and I also allowed myself to be persuaded to do this.
— What battles did you participate in?
— On the 6th, 7th, by the evening of the 6th, the 14th Armor Division was approximately 30 km from Vitebsk, meaning the 14th Armor Division, the 18th Armor Division, and the 1st Motorized Division – that is, the entire 7th corps.
— (Since what year has he been in the military?)
— I have been in the Red Army since 1938. I studied at the artillery academy.
— (And now he’s a personnel officer?)
— Yes, yes, yes.
— What was your first battle?
— I forget the location, it’s 25-30 km from Vitebsk, I didn’t have a map with me, we didn’t have any maps at all. We didn’t have any maps.
— The officers also don’t have maps?
— Everything we did was done so carelessly, quite sloppy. Our marches, the way we carried them out, our organization was generally careless.
— In what way?
— This way: all the units and my unit, which was considered good… You ask, then, how would we know that the organization was bad? The division to which I was assigned, and which was considered good, in reality turned out to be completely unprepared for war, with the exception of the artillerymen, because the crossings were carried out poorly, complete chaos, no traffic controllers, nothing, that’s the first thing; second, you destroyed the armored vehicles piecemeal.
— And how did this affect the command?
— Not very well.
— Why?
— Because [the unit] was lying low in the camps, that’s all, it was like that for three whole years. The marches were no more than 30 km, and only once or twice a year.
— What is the armament of the army and individual branches of the military?
— In my opinion, the army is well armed, but they don’t know how to use their weapons, yes, that’s exactly it. You destroyed us piecemeal, not as a whole. If the corps had been organized as a single whole and acted in a coordinated manner like yours, then the picture would have been completely different.
— How did replenishments come in?
— I’ll tell you frankly – the entire division was thrown in as reinforcements.
— And when did this division first come into contact with German troops?
— It was on the 5th, 6th, and 7th. On the 6th we conducted reconnaissance in force, which cost us dearly, and yet on the 7th we should have lost the battle, but your aviation interfered and defeated us [sic].
— When was the division dispersed?
— On the 7th it was destroyed, your aviation destroyed it. I barely survived and for this I must be extremely grateful to your aviation.
— Did the division suffer heavy losses?
— We lost 70% of our tanks, 70 or 60. From 60% to 70%.
— How many tanks were there in all in the division?
— You see, it wasn’t fully equipped, the old tanks hadn’t been replaced with new ones yet, but the new ones were already there.
— So approximately how many were there?
— We figured there were about 250 tanks, I can’t tell you exactly. I know the organization, but I can’t tell you exactly. There were more than 200 tanks, 250-300, something like that.
— What was the reason for the army’s poor combat effectiveness?
— Because of the German dive bombers, and because of the stupid actions of our command, stupid actions, idiotic, you could say, because the units were placed under fire, directly sent under fire.
— Who is responsible for leading the battle: the regiment commander, the supreme commander or the political commissar? After all, are there not political commissars in the Red Army?
— Number one is, of course, the commander, not the commissar, not the commissar, no-no, the first person is the commander. Until last year or the year before last, the commander and the commissar were equal in rights, but then it was concluded that there should be one principal, not two, there should be one, because two equal commanders irritate each other, interfere with each other, therefore the commander was considered the principal, and the commissar his assistant. There should be one, not two.
— We now know that just in the last few days (July 16), a change has taken place, political commissars again have increased powers, and the same powers that they had during the revolution.
— No, this is impossible, since after everything, after the development both in the political and, mainly, in the military sense… You say that political commissars and commanders were supposedly recently given equal rights. This is not true, in my opinion, it is not true. I do not know this and cannot imagine such a thought, since the majority of commissars in the military sense, of course, are subordinate to commanders, this goes without saying, besides, during military actions he would hinder instead of help.
— But according to the most recent reports, political commissars will still be eliminated one of these days.
— No, I don’t know about that, I can’t imagine that.
— It is quite possible that you, being at the front, did not know at all what changes had occurred in recent days. After all, you yourself say that the command turned out to be incompetent, and the news may not have reached you at all. Surely this can be assumed? Why does the army have commissars at all? What are their tasks?
— They raise morale and provide political education.
— And how does a soldier, commander, or officer feel about this?
— You see, if a commissar works intelligently, then he is loved and respected. But when he, using his authority, begins to exert pressure on a soldier, then it is clear that the soldier behaves formally, say, at meetings, anywhere and everywhere, but perhaps deep down he does not respect him.
— Do you know of any cases where troops resisted commissars?
— Not yet.
— (Then perhaps he will be interested to know that here in our prisoner of war camps the soldiers take a sharply negative position towards the commissars and we have had to take commissars under protection so that they are not killed by their own soldiers.)
— You see, it all depends on what kind of Red Army soldiers they are. If we take the recruits who have just been called up into the army, they are all illiterate people, almost all of them.
— (But this also applies to officers and senior commanders) What powers does a commissar have in the army?
— So, we are talking about the attitude towards commanders and commissars in the camps: the commissar is the commander’s right hand, in political terms, you know that there are workers, peasants, and intellectuals here, and among those groups there are particularly unstable people… it happens… among the mass of military personnel, the most unreliable are the representatives of the rich peasantry, the petty bourgeoisie. These are the ones who should be isolated.
— Why should he be under surveillance? Does a peasant in the Red Army, who as the son of a kulak knew better times, have a negative attitude towards the Red Army and the current state leaders? On what principled basis does he reject the current state leadership or command?
— Because they are corrupt and unreliable.
— Who above all is corrupt, the Jews?
— They’ll run off to wherever things are better.
— Could it be that the sons of peasants serving in the Red Army think they can benefit more from other forms of government, such as National Socialist Germany?
— What kind of peasantry is this?
— We are talking about former kulaks. Kulaks, former rich peasants. Are they dissatisfied with the current state system?
— Of course they’re dissatisfied.
— And why is that?
— Because… listen, do you know the history of the party? The history of Russia? In general: the kulaks were the defenders of tsarism and the bourgeoisie.
— (Doesn’t he think that the kulak is defending his property in the former Russian Empire, or does the German peasant now defend his property only because he is still an owner, since in Germany we have private property, but in Russia it has been abolished?)
— Yes, yes, that’s how it is. You forget – the kulak is one thing, and his children are something else, they are brought up in a completely different spirit. In most cases, children reject such parents.
— Does he think that the last years in the Soviet Union have brought advantages to the worker and peasant compared to what happened before?
— Absolutely.
— But we do not see any settlements for peasants or workers here, no factories with beautiful workshops. Everything here is so primitive, which is not the case in Germany, even under the Social Democratic government.
— Ask them what it was like under tsarism, ask them, they will tell you.
— Yes, but in these long years infinitely more could have been done than what has been done. One has only to compare it with what was done in Germany in a much shorter period of time. What has not been done there for the working man – in all respects. The life of our compatriots cannot even be compared with the life that was before.
— Okay, I’ll answer you: Russia has built its own industry. Russia is almost fully independent, it is not dependent on anyone. Russia has everything of its own, maybe it was done at the expense of discontent, at the expense of peasants, at the expense of workers and it is quite possible that part of the population is dissatisfied.
— But nothing has been done for the worker. After all, [your people] always say: an army of peasants and workers.
— Yes, but, you see, this independence is for them; independence means their own industry, their own industry, and their own industry is everything, everything. It is being done for them, because the fruits of all this are already partially there, and they are dissatisfied because we are doing all this hastily, we did not have enough time. We did not have time to get going, we did not have time to turn everything that was created into reality, and to do it in such a way that the people themselves could see what the money was spent on, the people know what the money was spent on, on construction.
— (But I saw these very same places 26 years ago, during the World War. They looked more prosperous then. In 25 years, the houses have fallen into ruin; I know the villages that I passed through 25 years ago when I was a soldier, these villages are now decayed and impoverished. How can he explain this?)
— All you see here is a poor country, the peasants here do not live as richly as, say, in Ukraine, in the North Caucasus, in Siberia. There is good land, the best land there. Turn to these peasants when you manage to finally defeat us. Ask them if they are happy. Okay, you want me to answer you. First: the war into which Russia was drawn by the British and the French in 1914, this war weakened Russia so much that we were completely ruined. It would be wrong to talk about 20 years of construction. There were no personnel of our own, there was no technical intelligentsia, professors, teachers. In 10 years it was necessary to build industry and create personnel. Is this a rich intelligentsia? What kind of intelligentsia is this? I am talking about the middle layer of the intelligentsia, about teachers, major engineers – this is one thing, another thing is the average commanders and engineers, of whom there were so few in Russia. Very few, In 10 years, it was necessary to create all this, Russia had no intelligentsia, none,
— (Since he is an engineer officer, does he also consider himself to be part of the intelligentsia?)
— Yes, I consider myself one of them.
— Here’s a question of a military nature. After what you have now learned about the German soldiers, do you still think that you have any chance of putting up the type of resistance with Red Army forces that would change the course of the war?
— You see, I don’t have that kind of information, so I can’t say whether there could be any assumptions. And yet, I personally think that the struggle will still be there. I don’t have information on whether the Soviet government has the ability to continue the struggle or, at least, to change the current situation. I don’t have the information, but still, I think that the struggle will continue.
— (He himself had just said that his division was considered one of the best. Yet in a few days it was completely destroyed. This should have made him think, and he should have realized that nothing would change in the future.)
— Others said the same. I got to know the division this year, so relatively recently. Frankly, I don’t think so, why should I think so? Why? Only because I told you that I didn’t like the command of the corps, which included my unit. I didn’t like it because it acted incredibly stupidly, impossible. Nothing more stupid,
— Yes, but it must be assumed that in other corps the situation is no better, and will not be better, and therefore the further course of the war will not change.
— I can’t say that, I don’t know that, not all generals are the same.
— (Does he know where our army is now? Not exactly in this area, but in the north and in the south, does he know that we are already in Kyiv? How, in his opinion, will the situation develop if we soon enter Moscow, and the administration and government flee from there, what will happen to the Moscow population then?)
— I know that you are currently located not far from Moscow.
— (He just said himself that he knows that we are near Moscow, on the outskirts of Moscow, he must imagine what will happen when Moscow is ours.)
— Okay, I’ll answer you frankly, I can’t imagine this.
— (So how does he think this is possible?)
— Let me ask you a counter question. What will happen if you find yourself isolated [surrounded]?
— Is he aware of such cases during the war?
— You see, in my opinion, it is impossible [to answer], that is, at present time I have no information. As for my opinion on this matter, there were cases when your corps that broke through were surrounded and destroyed. These situations took place. Since the 22nd I have been, so to speak, isolated from the capital and have lost all contact with it. What I know, I know from acquaintances.
— (Does he know that England has entered into an alliance with the Red government, and does he think that England will help the Red government?)
— You see, it was reported on the radio, we heard it on the radio, I have no other information, it was reported on the radio that the Soviet Union and England had entered into an alliance. I only heard on the radio that the Soviet Union and England had entered into an alliance. You are asking me if England will provide assistance. I don’t know, I don’t think England has provided any assistance to anyone yet.
— (Does he know that Finland, Romania, Hungary, and Slovakia also declared war on the Soviet Union?)
— All this is nonsense (laughing). The main thing is Germany.
— (Does he know that even France broke off diplomatic relations with Soviet Russia?)
— That was reported, I heard it on the radio.
— ((Loaded question) What will he say about Japan entering the war?)
— I can only say that it will be bad, nothing more. What else can I say?
— (Knowing that the whole world, all of Europe, is against Russia, does he still hope that the war will take a different turn?)
— I can say frankly what I think. I would not like to think about it, it is unpleasant for me to think about it, but what can you do, the fact is, of course, unpleasant, but it must be taken into account. You say all of Europe, all of Europe would not be worth a dime if it were not for Germany. What significance can Hungary, Finland, etc. have, what kind of states are they, all this is nonsense, the main thing is Germany.
— (Is he aware of the position of National Socialist Germany towards Jewry and does he know that the present Red government is mainly composed of Jews? Does he think that the Russian people will ever speak out against the Jews?)
— All this is nonsense; it’s all chatter. They have no influence, on the contrary, I personally, if you like, I myself can tell you that the Russian people have always harbored hatred towards the Jews.
— And why do they hate the commissars and the Jews in those cities and villages through which we passed? People constantly say – the Jews are our curse in Red Russia.
— What should I tell you? I will tell you about the commissars later, about the Jews I can only say that they do not know how to work, that Jews and gypsies are the same, they do not want to work. The main thing, from their point of view, is trade. Some Jews living with us even say that they would be better off in Germany, because they are allowed to trade there. “Let them beat us, but at least they will allow us to trade.” We are not allowed to trade. If you want, you can study, if you want, you can work, but he does not want to work, he does not know how, he is either engaged in trade, or wants to become an engineer, but he does not want to be a worker, or a technician, or a peasant. That is why they are not respected.
— (Does he know that in Germany the Jews were expelled from trade, science, art, medicine, and the other places that they had taken over?)
— Yes, I know that, I know, I know. I want to tell you one more fact. You have heard that in the Soviet Union there is a Jewish region called Birobidzhan. On the border between Manchukuo and the USSR there is a Jewish autonomous oblast, there is not a single Jew left there, only Russians remain. They do not know how to work, and they do not want to work.
— Did you know that your father’s second wife was also Jewish? After all, were the Kaganovichs not Jews?
— Nothing of the sort. She was Russian. Yes, Kaganovich was Jewish. Yes. My father’s wife? All that you say is hearsay. Nothing in common. Never. No, no, nothing of the sort, Nothing of the sort. What are you saying? Never in my life has anything like that happened, His first wife was Georgian, his second was Russian. That’s it,
— So his second wife’s last name isn’t Kaganovich?
— No, no, These are all rumors. What nonsense.
— (Who is his father married to now?)
— Who? No, he… His wife died in 1934. Alliluyeva. She was Russian, a real Russian, a Russian from Donbass. No, what do you expect; after all, the man is 62 years old, he was married. Not now, at least.
— (Did he keep in touch with his father before the war? Does he have any other sisters and brothers?)
— No, none. That is, I left on June 22. Until the 22nd we met as usual.
— (Is he the only son?)
— No, I’m the oldest son.
— (He has brothers?)
— I have a brother and a sister.
— (What does his brother do? Is he also a soldier?)
— I don’t know, he was supposed to go into aviation, he wanted to go, but at the moment I don’t know. Whether he went or not – I don’t know for sure.
— How old is he?
— He’s young, 20 years old, maybe 21.
— (What is his opinion on the issue of the civilian population and, above all, the Red Commissars being called upon to burn all the places they are leaving, to burn all the supplies. This will cause famine, this is a terrible disaster that will befall the entire Soviet Russian population.)
— You see, I am not the Soviet Union. More precisely, I am only a citizen of the Soviet Union, so I cannot say anything. Maybe you are interested in my personal opinion. When Napoleon entered Russia, the same thing was done.
— (Does he think this is right?)
— (Long pause) I’ll be honest, I think this is right.
— And why is that?
— Why not talk about it? Because we are enemies, right? Why hide it? If we are enemies, then we must fight, and in a fight, the ends justify the means. We talked about the fact that paratroopers, for example, yes, paratroopers, operate in the rear. Yours and ours. Yours, let’s say, operate among us. Well, enemies are enemies, that’s all, What is there to hide? It would be ridiculous to hide it.
— But this measure is still directed, first and foremost, against the people.
— Of course, I do not deny this.
— (Does he think that the government will do to Moscow the same thing that was done during Napoleon’s time?)
— I can’t say, I’m not aware, I don’t know about it.
— (Does he think that these measures will be able to delay the German advance?)
— I really don’t know, I can’t say.
— (Would he have considered it right if the Red government had set fire to Moscow and industrial enterprises?)
— I consider any means in a fight to be good, in a fight all means are good. A fight is a fight, that’s what I think.
— Yes, but this is self-destruction, generally speaking.
— Why is it so natural that you will take Moscow? Why are you convinced that you will definitely take Moscow? You are very confident, very confident,
— (What will he say to the fact that the population of Moscow, women, men, children and everyone in general are being called upon to take part in the struggle. This will lead to an incredible loss of life.)
— I hear this only from you, I’m only hearing it today. I’m hearing this for the first time. Did you mean the militia? All of Moscow? Here’s what I’ll tell you. Six or seven days have passed since we were actually defeated, on the 16th we had our last battle with you, the remnants of our division took part in it. So, from about the 10th to the 16th I have had no information, only rumors, talk and the like. So I don’t know.
— (Does he know about the speech his father gave on the radio [on July 3]?)
— This is the first time I’ve heard of it. I’ve never heard these things, never heard of them.
— Do you know about the formation of women’s battalions? We captured one of them on the Finnish front. (Does he think that Moscow will really be defended, or will it be declared an open city?)
— I really can’t say anything, I’m cut off from events, I can’t say anything at all.
— (What did his father say to him at the end, when he said goodbye to him on June 22?)
— Get out there and fight,
— (Did he know that we had found letters stating that the friends hoped to see each other again this summer if the planned walk to Berlin this autumn did not take place? [The letter dated] June 11, 1941).
— (Reads the letter and mutters to himself: “Damn it,”)
— (Allow me to briefly convey the contents of this letter for those who have not read it [Translator: The conversation was recorded on a hidden tape recorder, which is probably why, for the convenience of future work, the German officer read the text aloud.] In this letter, which is a correspondence between two Russian officers, there is the following phrase: “I am taking my tests as a junior lieutenant in the reserve and would like to go home in the fall, but this will only be possible if a jaunt to Berlin is not undertaken this fall. Signature: Victor, 11.6-41.” What will he say to this letter?)
— I want to say, you want to say that from this letter it is allegedly clear that the situation was such that the Soviet Union wanted to declare war before Germany attacked. Isn’t that how this letter should be understood?
— Is there any basis for this? Were there really such intentions?
— I don’t think so.
— If the Red government was a so-called peace-loving government, why did it arm itself like that? Germany was forced to arm itself because other countries were also arming themselves and it had to defend its own country. The Soviet government calls itself a paradise for peasants and workers, Why did they arm themselves if they say they are peace-loving and are not interested in the policies of other countries? Maybe the Soviet Union thought that it would have to take up defensive positions and that some country would attack it?
— So. (Long pause). I can say what I think. I will state my personal point of view. Obviously, there was an assumption that Germany might attack, and in order to prevent this, it was necessary to be prepared.
— (Wasn’t it striking that on all the Soviet Union’s symbols, on the globe, there was a hammer and sickle? Had he ever seen National Socialist Germany make a globe with a swastika? The swastika and nationalism were concepts that belonged to Germany alone and should only be valid for Germany. Why did the Soviet Union always depict the globe with a hammer and sickle? It was supposed to indicate world domination by the Red government.)
— And yet it is making his way everywhere. The fact remains. After all, you were the first to attack, weren’t you? It wasn’t the Soviet Union that attacked Germany first, but Germany that attacked first, They tell me that there is a speech by Stalin that says that if Germany doesn’t attack first, then we will. I have never heard anything like that, Never heard, Never, I can at least say that much. I couldn’t say.
— Do you know that the Red government tried to conduct operations against Germany in Bulgaria and in all the Balkan countries?
— I only know from the newspapers that England was engaged in incitement against Germany. And Bulgaria… From your press I know that England tried to engage in incitement and really did. It incited Yugoslavia and Greece against you. However, it is also known that, for example, in Finland, Germany tried harder to incite the Finns against Russia than, let’s say, Russia incited Bulgaria against Germany. As for Bulgaria, all this is made up, it is difficult to say.
— (I would also like to know one more thing. He is wearing comparatively good clothes. Did he carry these civilian clothes with him, or did he get them somewhere? After all, the jacket he is wearing now is comparatively good in quality.)
— Military? This one? No, it’s not mine, it’s one of yours. I already told you, when we were defeated, it was on the 16th, on the 16th we all dispersed, I even told you that the Red Army soldiers abandoned me. I don’t know, maybe you’re not interested in this, I’ll tell you about it in more detail. On the 16th, at about 7 p.m., no later, later, I think at 12, your troops surrounded Lyasnovo. Your troops were stationed a little far from Lyasnovo, we were surrounded, panic ensued, and while it was possible, the artillerymen fired back, fired back, and then they just disappeared, I don’t know where. I got away from them. I was in the division commander’s car, I was waiting for him. He was gone. At that time, your troops began to fire on the remnants of our 14th Armor Division. I decided to hurry to the division commander to take part in the defense. Red Army soldiers, wagon drivers, people from the wagon troops gathered around my car. They started asking me: “Comrade commander, command us, lead us into battle,” I led them into the attack. But they got scared, and when I turned around, there was no one with me. I couldn’t return to my people, because your mortars opened heavy fire. I started waiting.
I waited a little while and was still left completely alone, since the forces that were supposed to go on the offensive with me, to suppress a few of your machine gun nests out of the 4-5 you had, which was necessary to break through, they weren’t with me. One man is not an army in the field. It began to get light, I began to wait for my artillerymen, but it was pointless, and I went on. Along the way, I began to meet small groups, from the motorized division, from the supply train, all sorts of rabble. But I had no choice but to go with them. I went. Everyone began to change clothes, I decided not to do this. I was walking in military uniform and then they asked me to step aside, since I would be fired upon from an airplane, and, consequently, they would be fired upon too. I left them. There was a village near the railway, people were changing clothes there too. I decided to join one of the groups. At the request of these people, I exchanged trousers and a shirt with a peasant, and I decided to go to my own people in the evening. Yes, all of these are German things, your people gave them to me, boots, trousers, all of it. I gave everything to exchange. I was in peasant clothes, I wanted to run to my own people. But how? I gave away my military clothes and received peasant clothes. Oh no, my God, I decided to fight my way through with the others. Then I saw that I was surrounded, there was nowhere to go. I came and said: “I surrender.” And that’s it.
— (I would like to ask one more thing. Is he married or still a bachelor?)
— Yes, I’m married.
— (Does he want his wife to be informed that he has been captured?)
— No need. If you can fulfill my request, no need.
— (Does he have a family, children?)
— One daughter.
— How old is she?
— Three years old.
— (Why doesn’t he want his family to know that he is a prisoner? Maybe he thinks that his family will suffer because of it?)
— I don’t really think anything. If you want, let them know, if you don’t, don’t. What is there to tell? Please, go ahead and tell them, I don’t care.
— Is it a shame for a soldier to be captured, or does he think his family will get into trouble because of it?
— No, no trouble, I’m the one who feels the shame, me,
— (Yes, but after the war he will return home again. Then he will have to be ashamed for the rest of his life. It can always happen to a soldier that he will be captured, whether he is wounded or simply a brave soldier.)
— I am ashamed in front of my father that I remained alive.
— But not only in front of your father, but also in front of your wife.
— The wife? No matter.
— (Doesn’t it bother him that his wife worries about him? Maybe family life in Russia is such an indifferent thing that he doesn’t even feel the need to inform his relatives, as a German soldier does when he is captured.)
— No, I am not indifferent to her, I respect her very much, I love her very much.
— (If he doesn’t make the information known, his wife will think he’s dead. Does that not matter to him?)
— Tell me, why does this interest you so much?
— We are interested in this as soldiers. When we soldiers are captured, we always want to ensure that our loved ones are informed, because for us marriage and family life play a big role, for us it is extremely important, in contrast to Red Russia.
— No, they will already know there that I either died or was captured, they won’t know for sure, but they’ll know there that my division was defeated, that I either died or was captured.
— (Does he intend to write home?)
— (Long pause) Of course I want to, I don’t deny it.
— (Would he mind if we broadcast over the radio the news of his capture so that his family and his wife would know that he was alive, or does he think that his father doesn’t care?)
— No, there is no need to broadcast it.
— (Why? Because his father holds the highest position in the government, or does he think his father will put him in the pillory?)
— I don’t want to hide that it was a disgrace, I didn’t want to be taken [prisoner], but my friends were to blame for it, the peasants who wanted to throw me out were to blame. They didn’t know exactly who I was. And I didn’t tell them. They thought that they would be fired on because of me.
— (Did his comrades prevent him from doing something like this, or were they also involved in his being captured alive?)
— They are to blame for this, they backed the peasants. The peasants said: “Leave,” I just went into the hut. They said: “Leave now, otherwise we will inform on you,” They had already started threatening me. They were in a panic. I told them that they should leave too, but it was too late, I would have been caught anyway. There was no way out. So, a person must fight as long as there is at least the slightest possibility, and when there is no possibility, then… The peasant woman was literally crying, she said that they would kill her children, burn her house.
— (After he was captured, he was treated well, or he wants to complain about something, or he is now firmly convinced that all prisoners are treated the same way as he was.)
— No, I was treated well, I can’t deny that. My boots were liked by [your] people, but I’m not angry, because they are, after all, trophies, I can’t complain.
— (But he took off his own things, did he not?)
— Yes, they took my boots off.
— (Maybe they just searched him to see if there were any weapons in his boots?)
— No, there is no “maybe,” but definitely. And the boots were taken away.
— (He must have taken off his boots himself when he put on his other trousers?)
— No, when I came and surrendered, I was in peasant clothes and boots, but the next morning they took my boots. I felt a little bad, but I wasn’t that angry. If they’re taken, they’re taken.
— (How is he dressed now?)
— They gave me boots, these are, of course, worse, but for me they are better because they don’t pinch.
— (But he did say he got good things.)
— A lot, quite a lot.
— Does he know that the Red government is dropping leaflets and does he think that these leaflets will encourage the German soldier to defect to the side of the Red government, to the side of the Red Army?
— And if I ask you the same question, will your leaflets be successful in the Red Army or not? (I kindly ask you not to take my photo).
— (Why doesn’t he want to be photographed? Maybe he thinks the picture will be published?)
— They always take pictures in the most hideous poses. I’m not saying this because you should always take pictures only in beautiful poses. I’m not saying this because I don’t like it, I don’t like it at all.
— What impression did the defeats of the Red Army make on soldiers and officers?
— Of course, it dampens the mood. It’s unpleasant.
— (Maybe he knows how many planes the Red Army has already lost?)
— No.
— More than 7,000.
— And just how many have you lost?
— We haven’t even lost 200.
— Sorry, but I don’t believe that.
— (Hasn’t he seen the airfields with crashed Russian planes?)
— I haven’t seen the ones on the border. We worked on the Vitebsk-Liozno line, I haven’t seen them here either.
— (Does he really still have faith in the remnants of the Red Air Force? Not a single [Soviet] plane flies here.)
— You see, I don’t see these remnants, frankly speaking, I believe in them.
— Yes, but how is that possible, is it really possible that they first allow themselves to be beaten half to death, and then say “I am still viable?” This is somewhat unusual.
— That’s right, but for some reason I still don’t believe it.
— (Please tell him that he will spend the night in the neighboring house and will be sent further in the morning.)
— That’s fine. And may I ask, where is it that I’m being sent to?
— (He will be placed in a prisoner of war camp for officers, because he is an officer. Maybe he wants to send home a greeting. His letter will get there faster than through the Geneva Red Cross. Or maybe he thinks that his wife will escape with the Red government?)
— Possibly, possibly.
— (Does he think his father will take his wife with him?)
— Maybe yes, maybe no.
— (Would he like to send a few lines to his wife?)
— I am very grateful to you for your kindness, but for now there is no need.
— (One more question, Herr Major [Translator note: This is a German captain addressing a German major]: Didn’t he get the impression that much of what he was told before and what was done in the Soviet Union would in fact turn out to be completely different, and that many, in fact, were deceived?)
— Let me answer this later, I don’t feel like answering it right now.
— It’s a difficult question, isn’t it? Many commanders who were captured, including senior officers, said that it was as if a veil had fallen from their eyes, and they now saw where the entire [Soviet] system was leading them.
MEMORANDUM FROM MAJOR MINASYAN ON YA.I. DZHUGASHVILI 12 March 1945
To the representative office of the Council of People’s Commissars of the USSR for the Repatriation of Soviet citizens in Western Europe
Paris, 16. No. 4 Rue du Général Appert.
MEMORANDUM
Artillery Captain Yakov Iosifovich DZHUGASHVILI (son of the Marshal of the USSR Comrade STALIN) was a prisoner of war with me in Southern Bavaria, near the small town of Hammelburg. The POW camp was of an international nature, where the following were imprisoned: Soviet, French, English, and Belgian officers. In this camp held 27 Soviet generals and many senior command staff of the Red Army.
Yakov Dzhugashvili was imprisoned in this camp from April 1942 and was there until June 1942, after which he was transferred to another camp unknown to me. Yasha Dzhugashvili was personally known to many Soviet officers. During the short period of time spent in the Hammelburg camp, he showed himself to be a steadfast, courageous, and unwavering Soviet officer, a worthy son of the Great Father, Marshal Comrade STALIN. He received the same food as other Soviet officers, i.e. 150 grams of boiled “bread” per day, and one time turnip soup without any seasoning.
The Germans used him for household work inside the camp, taking advantage of his abilities; he [also] worked as a bone carver. He carved figures, chess pieces, tobacco pipes, etc. from horse bones.
Every day, photojournalists from fascist newspapers came to him with GESTAPO employees to compel Yasha and get information from him that would be beneficial to them, but they always met with a firm refusal: “I love my Motherland, I will never say anything bad about my Motherland,” – that was Yasha’s answer. The Germans dressed Yasha Dzhugashvili in “camouflage”. On his Red Army uniform, in 12 places, in large letters, in multi-colored paint, was written “S.U.” [“S.U.” – Sowjetunion – Soviet Union]
Chief of Staff of the 1st Soviet Partisan Regiment Major MINASYAN
12 March 1945
From I.A. Serov to S.N. Kruglov
Berlin
14 September 1946
Not to be opened in clerical spaces
Top Secret
To the Minister of Internal Affairs of the USSR
General-Colonel S.N. Kruglov
Eyes Only
On July 10th of this year, the Operational Sector of the Berlin Ministry of Internal Affairs arrested an employee of Department 1-Z of the General Staff of the Central Group of German Forces – Paul GENSGER [sic].
When interrogated, he testified that in 1941 in the city of Borisov, he served as the interpreter in the interrogation of Artillery Senior Lieutenant Yakov DZHUGASHVILI. The interrogation was conducted by the captain of Department 1-Z, Doctor SCHULZE, an employee of Department 5 of the Reich Security Main Office. After the interrogation, DZHUGASHVILI was sent to the Sachsenhausen concentration camp.
We later established that the Americans had arrested more than 15 Sachsenhausen camp workers in 1945. Thus, a request was made to hand them over to us for further investigation, since the Sachsenhausen camp is located on our territory. The Americans handed over the arrested persons, among whom were camp commandant KAINDL, an SS Colonel, and the commander of the security battalion Wegner, an SS Lieutenant Colonel.
In order to verify the testimony of GENSGER, we interrogated Gustav WEGNER, the arrested former commander of the SS security battalion of the “Death’s Head” division, which guarded the Sachsenhausen concentration camp. WEGNER was born in 1905, is college educated in police affairs, and a member of the Nazi party since 1939.
During interrogation, WEGNER testified that there was a special camp “A” in the Sachsenhausen concentration camp. Generals and senior officers of the Red Army, as well as the English and Greek armies, were held in this camp.
In March 1943, WEGNER walked through the territory of the special camp “A” together with the commandant of the concentration camp Sachsenhausen, SS Colonel KAINDL, who drew his attention to barracks No. 2 and said that two senior lieutenants were to be transferred from the concentration camp prison to these barracks that day, one of whom was Stalin’s son, and the other a relative of Molotov.
At the same time, he ordered him to post the POW rules of conduct in Russian in the barracks.
The next day, indeed, General BESSONOV, two lieutenant colonels, and senior lieutenants DZHUGASHVILI and KOKORIN were transferred to barracks No. 2. Major General BESSONOV was the head of the German school for teenage saboteurs in the city of Poznan, and who is currently under arrest and in Moscow.
Later, VEGNER came to barracks #2 several times and asked senior lieutenant DZHUGASHVILI what requests he had for the camp commandant’s office. DZHUGASHVILI never asked for anything except newspapers, through which he caught up on the situation at the front. DZHUGASHVILI never gave his last name. He always behaved independently and with some disdain for the camp administration.
WEGNER further testified that in late 1943 he learned that DZHUGASHVILI had been killed by a sentry “while attempting to escape.” WEGNER allegedly did not know the details of the murder, since the investigation into this case was conducted on the orders of HIMMLER.
In connection with this testimony, we interrogated the commandant of the Sachsenhausen concentration camp, KAINDL, an SS Colonel and a member of the Nazi party since 1937, who confirmed that, indeed, Senior Lieutenant DZHUGASHVILI was held in the camp prison for three weeks and then, on the orders of HIMMLER, was transferred to a special camp “A”. This camp consisted of three barracks, surrounded by a stone wall and, in addition, at a distance of 2 meters from the wall, three barbed wire fences were erected. High-voltage current passed through one of them.
As KAINDL testified, he entered Barrack No. 2 every week to look in on the prisoners.
General BESSONOV, on HIMMLER’s orders, wrote a draft report on the realignment of Russia to Germany’s standards. KAINDL knew that BESSONOV and two lieutenant colonels were Gestapo agents, and had worked for more than a year under German leadership to disintegrate the Red Army, but had been found guilty of something, and therefore they were sent to the concentration camp.
Senior Lieutenant DZHUGASHVILI kept to himself, did not talk to anyone, including General BESSONOV, and did not make any requests to the camp administration, but was very interested in the situation at the front.
On one occasion, KAINDL, at the request of DZHUGASHVILI, in addition to newspapers, gave him a map indicating the location of the Red Army and German army units. DZHUGASHVILI spent a good deal of time carefully examining the map.
Regarding the murder of DZHUGASHVILI, KAINDL testified that in late 1943, Senior Lieutenant DZHUGASHVILI was killed by a sentry under the following circumstances.
The prisoners of barracks No. 2 were out for a walk near the barracks. At 7 o’clock in the evening, SS soldier JUNGLING, who was watching them, ordered them to go into the barracks, and they all went. DZHUGASHVILI did not go and demanded to see the camp commandant. JUNGLING repeated his order, but DZHUGASHVILI refused to carry it out. Then JUNGLING said that he would go and call commandant KAINDL on the phone. During the conversation on the phone, JUNGLING told KAINDL that he heard a shot and hung up. At this time, as KAINDL testifies, the following happened:
DZHUGASHVILI, walking while lost in thought, crossed the neutral path to the wire. The sentry held his rifle at the ready and shouted “Stop.” DZHUGASHVILI continued walking. The sentry shouted “I will shoot.”
After this shout, DZHUGASHVILI began to swear, grabbed his tunic with his hands, tore the collar, exposed his chest and shouted to the sentry “Then shoot.” The sentry shot him in the head and DZHUGASHVILI was killed.
The arrested KAINDL, in order to justify DZHUGASHVILI’s shooting, added during interrogation that DZHUGASHVILI, at the same time as the sentry’s shot, grabbed the high-voltage wire and immediately fell onto the first two rows of barbed wire.
In this position, the murdered DZHUGASHVILI, on the orders of KAINDL, lay for 24 hours, until HIMMLER ordered the body to be removed and taken to the camp crematorium for examination. Then two professors from Reich Security arrived at the crematorium and drew up a report stating that DZHUGASHVILI had been killed by a high-voltage electric shock, and that the shot to the head followed. At the same time, the report stated that the guard had acted correctly, according to instructions.
After the professors’ conclusion, the body of DZHUGASHVILI was burned in the crematorium, and the ashes were placed in an urn, which was sent along with the materials of the investigation into the murder of DZHUGASHVILI to the Reich Security Main Office.
As KAINDL testifies, during the investigation he was afraid of trouble from HIMMLER, but the matter worked out “smoothly.”
In order to verify the accuracy of KAINDL’s testimony about the shooting of DZHUGASHVILI, he was asked to describe DZHUGASHVILI’s appearance.
KAINDL remembers well the appearance of JUGASHVILI and described him correctly.
In addition, a photo of DZHUGASHVILI, cut out from a German magazine, was presented. And in the photo, KAINDL immediately pointed out DZHUGASHVILI.
Thus, KAINDL’s testimony regarding DZHUGASHVILI being held and shot in his camp in 1943 does not raise any doubts.
KAINDL’s addition that DZHUGASHVILI was killed by high-voltage electric current is KAINDL’s fabrication in order to mitigate his responsibility for DZHUGASHVILI’s shooting.
When I asked KAINDL where the personnel file of POW DZHUGASHVILI was kept, he replied that he kept the file in his safe, and before Germany’s capitulation he ordered his adjutant to burn it.
During the investigation it was established that the commandant of the concentration camp, SS Colonel KAINDL, and the commander of the SS security battalion, SS Lieutenant Colonel WEGNER, fearing the upcoming blame for the crimes committed in the concentration camp, are holding back information. Their attempts to commit suicide have been recorded, while expressing their intentions to throw themselves at the guard, smash themselves against their cell wall, etc.
Due to the fact that when we received the arrested SS workers from the Sachsenhausen camp, the Americans asked for them to be called to court, it was not possible to fully apply physical force to the arrested KAINDL and WEGNER. Agent activities were established to surveil the arrested persons inside their cells.
In connection with the transfer of operational work on Germany to the MGB, all materials on this issue will be located in the Berlin Operations Sector.
Dep. Minister of Internal Affairs of the USSR I. SEROV
14 September 1946
Translation © 2025 by Michael Estes and TranslatingHistory.org
Translating History 